On his blog, Rich Tommaso recently posted about his comic Miriam and notes that people often accuse him of "ripping off" Daniel Clowes. In response to such claims, Tommaso says that he has changed from inking with a brush to a pen. When I first read Miriam last fall, I enjoyed the comic yet noticed what seemed to me like similarities to Clowes's work. It wasn't that Tommaso's ink line looked like Clowes, but rather that scenes in Miriam echoed moments from his comics. In the post, Tommaso invites readers to "tell me what you think: Am I still ripping off Dan Clowes?" I am taking this question as genuine and assuming that Tommaso wants it discussed; so in what follows, I post images from the two cartoonists. Tomasso's panels are not swipes, but they show, I think, the influence of Clowes, especially in terms of characters and plot. You can look at this series of images and decide for yourself the degree to which they do or don't echo Clowes.
In Miriam, a former cameraman, now an alcoholic, waits on a couch to be interviewed by a film school student:
In a still from Art School Confidential, a former artist, who is also an alcoholic, sits on a couch and talks to an art school student:
Miriam and Ghost World's Enid have similarly unusual names, body types, and facial features, wear interesting glasses, talk on the phone in various states of undress etc . . . 
A similar moment in Miriam and Ghost World:
No one’s home, and a girl provides a “wisecrack”:
The young Miriam is a little like a visual amalgam of three Ice Haven characters: the fuzzy coat of David Goldberg; the glasses and bug-eyes of Charles; and the stuffed toy of Georgie. Enid also likes the Flintstones and has a Fred Flintstone and Pebbles doll:
A parent attempts to get a child to play with an unwilling participant - Miriam then Ice Haven: 
A similar street scene in Miriam and Clowes's The Death Ray:
This image is like the two that follow, from Clowes's Caricature and the cover of Eightball 15:
Similar establishing shots:
A moment framed by a window:
On the phone while on a bed:
Miriam makes use of a standard Clowes style of lettering – the Clowes in color is from the GW cover:
Some full pages of Miriam can be seen here.
Here's a review that discusses this topic.
Saturday, April 26, 2008
Influence?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
18 comments:
When Miriam came out, I literally thought it was a new Clowes comic. And then I thought of reviewing it AS a Clowes comic. You did it better than I could have imagined! Awesome post.
Yeah, I think the cover looks just like another Daniel Clowes book, which is a bit worrying.
Rich is clearly a talented illustrator, so it seems a shame that he has modelled himself too closely on Clowes. I suppose it is bound to happen and I expect more people in 'the school of Clowes' will appear, but I'd hope, amd I'm sure Dan hopes too, that it will be the starting point for those artists and their own style will grow from there.
I suppose you have to at least be happy to be such a cultural influence - there are worse things to be.
I think the Clowes influence is there but those samples you post are pretty conventional things you would find in a lot of comics. They are not lifts or anything. I mean, you would find the same things in Peanuts or Archie but you wouldn't fault Clowes for using them.
Shannon,
It's not simply the images, but the plot/character concepts. I don't think that in Archie you would find a former cameraman, now an alcoholic, waiting on a couch to be interviewed by a film school student, something so like a scene from Clowes's film; is such a scene really a convention that appears in many comics? I don't think you would find a story broken up into segments in the way you do in Ice Haven, nor lettering that looks like Clowes. . .
And the knocking on the door scene in which a character responds to the fact that the person is not there with a sexual joke -- this may appear in other comics, but I can't think of any. Also the similairites betweeen Enid and Miriam and bwtweeen the Enid/Becky and Miriam/Peter relationships . . .
Wow, you really got to it with the comparisons.
In response to folks like Shannon I'd argue that there's a big (and generally discernible) difference between cobbling together influences from other sources and simply cloning what someone else perfected. Just because you put your own spin on it doesn't make that less true.
And that could be the end of the story if Tommaso was content with that. I mean, to some people that's art enough and it's not like he's going to 'steal' any of Clowes' audience...it's not THAT good of an imitation. And as easy as it is to just frown on him, I feel for Tommaso because I believe that he doesn't mean to copy Clowes. And he is talented afterall. It's his talent that makes him worth criticizing. I assume he's young (hope he's young) and will find his own voice.
But meanwhile it's silly to argue that in most every sense Miriam wouldn't exist if not for Dan Clowes.
Huh. He's 37? Okay, nevermind...
The "moment framed by a window" panels are straight out of Wally Wood's famous "22 Panels that always work"... and you could do a similar exercise showing Clowes aping Wood. But Clowes has his own separate style from Wood; you can tell the two apart in a heartbeat. When I read Tommaso I can't shake the feeling that that I'm actually reading a comic by Daniel Clowes. I too thought Miriam was a new Clowes book when it first came out. I agree Rich is an excellent artist and would love to see his work diverge away from Clowes.
These comments are ignoring the fact that 2 artists can work from a similar set of influences. In this case, if you look at newer posts on Tommaso's blog, I think he and Clowes are both largely influenced by old pulp films. Comics creators do have inspirations outside of comics!!
I'm not saying his work is totally devoid of Clowes' influence, but Tommaso's had books published by various publishers for a number of years, and he's up for 2 Eisners this year.
Come ON.
The "establishing shot" thing is FAR overextending. The one with the corner of a building and a word balloon pointing inside...that's preposterous!
Damn near EVERY comic does that, from X-Men to Clowes to Katsuhiro Otomo...
Aside from that, I suppose Tommaso was influenced by Clowes. I personally think that "Miriam" was one of the best comic book comics of the year last year and should an issue of similar quality arrive this year, I'll say the same thing again.
I looked at the pages linked to at the bottom and noticed that 3 or 4panels that look just like the ones in Ghost World, including the preposterous one, appear on the same page in Miriam. Even Tommasso knows that this comic was heavily influenced by Clowes. Sure many comics use that kind of shot, but not with a look that's so much like Clowes. That panel is the weakest one, evidence wise, but even it is convincing when it appears so near other Ghost World 'swipes'.
Is this just about Miriam? Because Satchel Paige: Striking Out Jim Crowe doesn't look anything like Dan Clowes art. And did anyone see his "Ghost Train" in Nickelodeon Magazine? That is one of the best cartoons I've ever seen, bar none.
And what about every other book he's worked on?
I think it's worth mentioning that you're dealing with someone who's shown he's adept at many different styles and has never shied away from trying something new. If the discussion is about that one issue of Miriam, keep it there. Don't knock the artist without considering his other work.
The borders on the cover of Miriam looks pretty similar to Eightball #19 to me too...
http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/8b26b8ad443eb0de7e9be1a70ea226a2a9c576ae_m.jpg
This is a waste of time.
Read it. Don´t read it.
But why crucify this guy?
If Clowes feels it as a copy, let him be the one to take the action.
I mean, if the guy asked to be critcized, do it in his site, not here, with that amount of images, where he cannot defend himself.
If you think this is a cruxifiction, then you have a thin skin. I get the impression that everybody here thinks Tomaso is talented. And why must it be posted to his site- is that a rule? And did they ban him from posting here, so he couldn't defend himself? Why would he need to defend himself anyways - as you said he brought it up.
I bet this is more publicity then this comic has had in months.
And some of the reviews the comic got were way harsher then anything said here.
I guess none of you have ever heard of Seth? Or Palookaville?
Rich's art looks much more like Seth than it does Clowes. The brush-lines and the way the backgrounds are blacked in, even.
It reads a bit Clowes-y, but it looks more like Seth's work.
"The borders on the cover of Miriam looks pretty similar to Eightball #19 to me too..."
Which was Dan Clowes aping Crumb's Weirdo covers, not doing something original.
If you people knew the history of underground and independent comics more, and knew how much influence they've always had over each other, you wouldn't be talking about this stuff.
In the early days, everyone accused Adrian Tomine of aping Mazzuchelli (who was publishing alt-comix then in Rubber Blanket) and the Hernandez Bros, and then a year later, of aping Clowes.
Crumb influenced so many other cartoonists, too. I'm pretty sure Bagge used that cover border thing on an issue of Neat Stuff, too.
" "The borders on the cover of Miriam looks pretty similar to Eightball #19 to me too..."
Which was Dan Clowes aping Crumb's Weirdo covers..."
...which was Crumb aping old Mad covers...
Post a Comment